1970 Ironhead, Oil coming from breather pipe?

[acox]

Hello, I am really new to forums in general, although been a member of this one for a long time. I bought the first chooper builders handbook CD a while ago and been dreaming of building my own bike. Now my bike building activities are starting to take off little by little and would really like to become more active

I bought a 1962 sportster in January this year which had been modified by a bike builder I live nearby in Finland. Has a 1970 Ironhead engine in it. You can see the bike before I bought it here: http://share.ovi.com/media/Andy1966.Andys1962Sports/Andy1966.10140

I had a dream of being able to kick start and this is my first Harley too. However, three days and I only started it once . So I started to convert to electric start and have almost finished....so the aim being that I can carry on practising the kickstart and still be able to get to work. Thats the aim anyway...and possible remove the electric start again later as I think it is rather cool. Lets see if I can get the technique and my old body can take it.

This bike had been standing for about a year in doors. Once I got the electric start going and ran the engine a few times I found oil coming out of the breather pipe. I have heard this is normal when standing for a long time. But I have started it a number of times and it continues....although I have not been able to take it on a run yet as still working on mounting battery and electrics. I took a video of what it looks like with oil dripping out: http://share.ovi.com/media/Andy1966.Andys1962Sports/Andy1966.10807. It may be a long run is needed, but I am concerned and thought I should ask some experts for advice.

The oil coming out is grey....which I am told means there might be some contaminant, like water. I know the bike has no water cooling, and has not been exposed outside during that year. So the only other liquid I can think of is Petrol as I have left the fuel on occasionally overnight when I forgot. But I would think there should still not be much oil there to be coming out if this were the case?

Does anybody know if this might be a problem or not? Or whether I should just wait a week or so until I can give it a good run? Thankyou!

[ghostrider 61]

Andy,

I'm having a real hard time trying to figure out exactly where your "breather pipe" is coming from and going to in the video. Is this a tube that is coming from the heads or the crankcase?

As far as spitting oil...I've met very few EVO Sportsters that didn't get "blow by" now and again. And it is grey because it gets mixed with condensation in the process of cooling the heads. While I'm not really up to speed on IH Sporties, the Evos (I have a '92) breath through the heads and hence the blow by. Check the oil in your tank and make sure it is a normal color. I've never seen one pissing oil like yours but I'm sure some do. It looks to be more vapor than oil.

What I've done on my bike is: installed a filter on the breather tube and run it just a little under the normal 3 quarts of oil. By a little, I mean less than half a quart (liter). I still get an occasional bit of blow by, but nothing like it once was. Hope that helps.

As far as kicking it over. Watch others and learn the technique. Each bike has a personality and you'll have to adapt to the bike. Be careful, as they call it "Sportster knee" for a reason.

[acox]

Hi,

Makes me feel a whole lot better, especially regarding the colour! I read that there is almost always something coming out of the breather pipe but I only expected a couple of drips.

I checked the colour of the oil in the tank, and it looks ok. Interesting when you say you are running with less oil and filter. Last night I finalised the electrics and managed to start her again...and no leak? I have run it many times for longer and always had a "leak" or lots of drips But Not even a drip and I ran it for 10 minutes...and then on and off checking the starting. When I investigate a bit further I now have the bike upright, as on the stand it leans a lot. And when I checked the oil it was very low in the tank. No idea at the moment why...but maybe it has fixed itself?

Here is a picture of the breather pipe which comes from just below the generator at the front of the bike, exiting with a metal pipe. http://share.ovi.com/media/Andy1966.Andys1962Sports/Andy1966.10820.
Just in front of the oil pressure switch you can see it changes to a rubber pipe which then exits at the back of the bike where the video was taken.

It was late when I finished and the bike is so loud it would have woken all neighbours. So I will start her up again tonight when I have filled the oil tank up again and see if it occurs again.

Thankyou!

[ghostrider 61]

That photo shows that your IH has the breather coming from the cam cover neaar the oil filter (from what I can see). That's different than the set up on an Evo (breaths through the heads). Hpoefully someone more familiar with IHs will pipe up to this thread...

I think your okay if it spits a bit of oil like I said in the initial post. But I'd keep an eye on it and ask around to others who own IH Sporties and ask questions. Like I said, my bike is an Evo and although the concept of the engine breathing should be a common thing, the difference between an Evo and an IH is something I just can't address with any certainty.

If I were you.'d invest in a phone call to an independent shop in your area (I've seen some real nice bikes from Finland) that knows something about old iron and ask the question...couldn't hurt.

[acox]

Hi,

There is no oil filter there...the round part is the generator sitting the other side of the round area in this case. The breather seems to come from underneath it. The only oil filter is in the tank itself. But as you say this is different and this comes from above the cams I think, as you say.

I filled up with a bit more oil and started spitting a little but nowhere near as much. I actually rode it last night for the first time, and what a great feeling Clutch slipped and adjustment did not do much...so I will be taking it to my local bike expert and asking for help there, and with the oil (as you suggested ). Just finishing off a bracket to mount the coil as held on by plastic wiring tie-wraps at the moment.

So off to the bike guru tomorrow....will let you know what they say.

Thankyou for your help. Much appreciated!

[Indy_]

Your oil pump check valve might be leaking by. When those motors sat for a long time they tend to puke a little oil until they have run for awhile. It should clear up after running it. If it does not you will want to check the check ball in the oil pump. Oil is filling up the sump and its a dry sump motor so it is going to puke it out when running.

As far as starting it with the kicker, If everything is set right with the bike kicking it over once or twice should start right up. You want your plugs, wires, timing all set right. Most of the old sportsters I ran , twist the throttle once, clear the motor and get to top of compression, key on and one good kick and she would be running. Sometimes I did not touch the throttle at all.

[ghostrider 61]

You're the man Indy...I knew someone with some IH experience would eventually step up.

Thanks.

[acox]

Hi, thanks for the responses...clarifies a lot ...

I have got the check relief valve ball, and ordered the spring. Assumed both would be needed to make sure working ok. So will need to wait about a week to get these.

I took for a ride today and I have a couple of other big issues for me I hope you can help with Sorry first Harley and I have only ever had old Kawaski's and Suzuki's before. So might be blatently obvious ... just not to me yet. But really enjoying working on the Sportster so far....

I had clutch slipping really really badly. To the point I had to run with the bike up the hill. So I checked the clutch springs and they were only 1.5inches, where manual says 1.75inches should be the norm. So brought high performance new springs to replace them. This bike has had some kind of stroker conversion...and I know that instead of the 120psi the manual states, there is 150psi that I measured which would seem to indicate this is true. But no idea of what it really has inside. However the manual says also to check the friction plates. They look ok and plenty of the clutch material. But no idea what checking for oil saturation means? Just wondered if someone knows? The manual does not describe that this means.

I also found that with the cover off. There is a continuous oil dripping from a place I cannot find in the manual. The amount of oil coming out from this clutch cover was more than I had put in. So that could also be a reason for the clutch slipping...far too much oil in there. See the picture here: http://share.ovi.com/media/Andy1966.Andys1962Sports/Andy1966.10824 . So right of the compensation sprocket, left of the chain adjuster there is a round inset item as shown. Every few seconds it drips oil, and out on to the floor eventually. I am assuming this happens all the time filling the casing up. But I cannot find out what this is? Should I be doing something here to stop this or is this actually normal? Does anyone recognise what this is there for?

I think those two items will solve my slipping clutch if anyone can help? And I willl post the result of the check relief valve when I get it. and may also be worsened due to the check relief valve too.

Lastly and probably the daftest as I have no experience of the forward controls on any bike. So I had these fitted when I bought the bike as the guy before me was quite much shorter than me, and at 6ft3 I needed a bit more length there. So straight from custom chrome for the sportster... http://share.ovi.com/media/Andy1966.Andys1962Sports/Andy1966.10825 . However I have to lift my leg to push the gear pedal down, and backkick the pedal to change the other way. My foot cannot bend up or down that much, in fact I am not sure anyone can to this extent. Certianly the guy that fitted them says these were designed in the 1970's and they do backkick them....could anyone comment if this is true or not?

Many thanks for your help so far...really appreciated! And sorry for such a long post. Just need some help to get me fully started.

[Indy_]

Oil coming from there is normally from a stuck check valve in your oil pump. The hole is a vent/check valve from the primary into your crankcase. It was suppose to relieve pressure if it builds. This all could add to your clutch problems.
Most guys with Iron Heads seal that off and add a vent to the primary. It can save from major damage down the line.

[acox]

I would never have figured that out, and even though I now know about this one way transfer valve, I still cannot find it in the clymer manual

So after you pointed this transfer valve from crankcase into the primary I did a search and found a lot of material, although nothing in detail to help make sure I cannot make a mess of it. I included a couple here in case anyone else has the same problem:
http://www.ironheadcycle.com/pages/howto4.htm This clearly about 4 quaters down the (long) artical how the guy drilled the transfer valve, taps it and then puts screw in it to stop the leak. Nice solution.
http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=150130&page=4 - This server seems to be busy a lot, but when available gave good details. Something about some kind of permanent cold welding, using jbweld....not sure what it is so need to look at it when the article is back again.

I left the primary cover off all day and still leaking so I will wait the week until the check valve spring comes and put that on. And in the meantime try and plug this transfer valve. But then need to figure out how to vent it, if needed...

So there seems two solutions. One to drill and screw and one to "jbweld" it. Do you know which would be best? I cannot find a diagram to see if I drill this transfer valve with everything in place (Only removing the chain tensioner to get access) then will I drill through into anything and cause damage? Otherwise I will try this jbweld method.

And then the issue of venting the primary if you block the transfer valve. All the articles I found seem to be biased to either the venting is not needed, or that there should be some venting. I cannot figure why this venting would be needed if the transfer valve is one way? If I block it or do not block it then whatever happens should still happen either way if I understood that correctly...which would indicate that I need not vent the primary?

Thanks! I think this will really be the complete solution to my oil leak and the clutch problems and be on the road soon
Andy.

[Indy_]

Of the couple that I have done, I welded small patches over them during rebuilds. I do know a lot of guys have used JB Weld but I have never done this. Personal preference I guess. I like the drill and tap method you posted and you probably could do that but I would be concerned about metal chips getting into the sump and pumped through the motor.
Any of the methods will work its just what you feel comfortable doing.
As far as venting the primary, I always did it because that is how I was told to do it when I was shown. Again personal preference. A vent on the primary is not going to hurt anything by being there and there may be some benefit to having it. Not having it is debatable.
Your clutch problems may not be over after fixing the oil leak. It really depends on what they look like and if any damage has been done to them.

[acox]

Hi

Sorry taken a long long timeto responsd as getting the JB Weld from USA to Finland was a problem for some reason. First got lost in post, no idea where. The second shipped with my family from UK. So managed a day ago to put the JB Weld on the bike, and last night started her up. I had put in the new check valve and spring too to stem that flow of oil from the tank. And also added an oil pressure meter for my own satisfaction and safe knowledge all is well....as no oil warning light there.

Fired her up and no leak at all. Nothing

Appreciate all the wise words and help with this! On to the next stage....Thanks!

Andy

[Blue Collar Moto]

Good deal. I'm glad your not leaking anymore. I just found this post otherwise I would of said this b4. When I do the check valve I like to change the ball as well as the spring. You can make a tool with the old ball by welding a rod to it. I learned this reading a old Easyriders Magazine. Once you made the tool, apply just a bit of lapping compound to the ball and work it into the seat. Remove ALL lapping compound and install new ball and spring. If it keeps leaking on you try this. If you start her up every day you also wont flood the clutch. Not enough oil buildup.
I would also suggest soaking the clutch plates in ATF. The ATF eats the oil out of the disks (oil saturation) and will help keep them from sticking. I have had the opposite problem for the same reasons in a 70 IH I just started working on. Clutch isnt slipping but sticking.

[acox]

Hi,

Thanks for the good advice! I did not think of lapping the check valve. I put the new ball in place and was advised that the housing is soft...so give it a light tap with a hammer and long shaft to make sure it seats properly. And this appears to have worked ok, along with the other fixes. If it fails again will try lapping it.

I did a search for ATF on google and got so many responses for different parts not sure what it is? Could you help me out and let me know what it stands for or where you get if from? Thankyou. I kept the old plates and as they appear good to me so could soak them and try again in the future.

Currently got the clutch to release properly, and adjusting the clutch springs to give more compression during the weekend as now found only a slight bit of slippage with max power....as I assume the stroker has taken this to its limits. I still get binding when trying to change gear....ie the bike is pulling when clutch lever fully held in and adjusted correctly. So when I have the clutch off again at the weekend I will check the metal plates as the clutch plates themselves are new. Maybe there is slight warpage...only thing I can think of at the moment.

[Blue Collar Moto]

ATF=Automatic Transmission Fluid. I have a set of Triumph plates sitting in a bath of the stuff today. Tomorrow I'm taking the ones for my 70 IH and sticking them in there overnight. I'm hoping it will work. My plates are old and should just be replaced but no $$$ so I'm trying to make do with what I have. Also if your hands are real greasy and you don't have any of that industrial hand cleaner around the ATF will cut the grease. A lot of guys run it instead of oil in there primarys on the Ironheads. Ol' timer trick.